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	<title>Comments on: Taxing Justice</title>
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	<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/</link>
	<description>Canada&#039;s online legal magazine</description>
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		<title>By: Mike Crosby</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708767</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Crosby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708767</guid>
		<description>I told you the government will lose money on the HST.

10 simple HST myths 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/andrew-steele/10-simple-hst-myths/article1377589/

1) “The HST is a tax grab.” 

The CD Howe Institute found the B.C. and Ontario HST’s likely revenue neutral due to the generous rebates for new homes and other sectors. The study is from last summer and recently announced relief on low value purchases under $4 in Ontario makes this even more obvious. 

Reinforcing that finding, this week’s report from the Roger Martin task force on the economy says that “increased revenue from the harmonized sales tax is matched by reductions in corporate and personal taxes and by tax credits. The effect is revenue loss.” 

The HST is not a tax grab. The Ontario government will actually lose revenue. That accusation is demonstrably false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I told you the government will lose money on the HST.</p>
<p>10 simple HST myths </p>
<p><a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/andrew-steele/10-simple-hst-myths/article1377589/">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/andrew-steele/10-simple-hst-myths/article1377589/</a></p>
<p>1) “The HST is a tax grab.” </p>
<p>The CD Howe Institute found the B.C. and Ontario HST’s likely revenue neutral due to the generous rebates for new homes and other sectors. The study is from last summer and recently announced relief on low value purchases under $4 in Ontario makes this even more obvious. </p>
<p>Reinforcing that finding, this week’s report from the Roger Martin task force on the economy says that “increased revenue from the harmonized sales tax is matched by reductions in corporate and personal taxes and by tax credits. The effect is revenue loss.” </p>
<p>The HST is not a tax grab. The Ontario government will actually lose revenue. That accusation is demonstrably false.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Manevich</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708255</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Manevich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708255</guid>
		<description>I echo John&#039;s skepticism about this. I am unconvinced that the effect on access to justice can be precisely measured in percentage points. Nor do I believe, if access to justice is the real goal, that chief among the culprits should be tax policy, rather than - to choose just two prominent examples - the number of lawyers who choose to practise in rural areas, or the funding of legal aid. 

Applying the same logic as those who object to imposing HST on legal services, presumably the reduction of the GST to 5% should have measurably &lt;em&gt;increased&lt;/em&gt; access to justice, yet I don&#039;t seem to recall anyone applauding the Harper government for it. And reducing personal income taxes increases disposable income, which also increases the amount of money people can spend on legal services, thereby, one would assume, increasing access to justice.  And so on.

I don&#039;t question the sincerity of the objections to imposing HST on legal services, but slogans such as &quot;taxing justice&quot; really do no justice to the issue, so to speak. The effects of changes to consumption taxes need to be looked at in a broader context, both that of other tax changes and that of government policy generally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I echo John&#039;s skepticism about this. I am unconvinced that the effect on access to justice can be precisely measured in percentage points. Nor do I believe, if access to justice is the real goal, that chief among the culprits should be tax policy, rather than &#8211; to choose just two prominent examples &#8211; the number of lawyers who choose to practise in rural areas, or the funding of legal aid. </p>
<p>Applying the same logic as those who object to imposing HST on legal services, presumably the reduction of the GST to 5% should have measurably <em>increased</em> access to justice, yet I don&#039;t seem to recall anyone applauding the Harper government for it. And reducing personal income taxes increases disposable income, which also increases the amount of money people can spend on legal services, thereby, one would assume, increasing access to justice.  And so on.</p>
<p>I don&#039;t question the sincerity of the objections to imposing HST on legal services, but slogans such as &#034;taxing justice&#034; really do no justice to the issue, so to speak. The effects of changes to consumption taxes need to be looked at in a broader context, both that of other tax changes and that of government policy generally.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Crosby</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708168</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Crosby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708168</guid>
		<description>The HST is a joke.
Each Ontario citizen is being given $300 regardless of where they live in Ontario.
But citizens in Northern Ontario already pay higher prices for natural gas and gasoline, so they will pay more HST than those living in southern or eastern Ontario.
Northern Ontario residences also use more natural gas as it&#039;s colder longer, so they will pay much more HST.
The government claims the tax will bring in 2 to 3 billion dollars.
But they are giving business a 2 to 3 billion tax cut.
Plus personal income tax is being cut for many citizens.
Plus the GST rebate from the federal government to lower income citizens is being matched by the province. 
Therefore, despite higher taxes on more products the government will lose money at the end of the day, if you believe the facts and figures the government cites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The HST is a joke.<br />
Each Ontario citizen is being given $300 regardless of where they live in Ontario.<br />
But citizens in Northern Ontario already pay higher prices for natural gas and gasoline, so they will pay more HST than those living in southern or eastern Ontario.<br />
Northern Ontario residences also use more natural gas as it&#039;s colder longer, so they will pay much more HST.<br />
The government claims the tax will bring in 2 to 3 billion dollars.<br />
But they are giving business a 2 to 3 billion tax cut.<br />
Plus personal income tax is being cut for many citizens.<br />
Plus the GST rebate from the federal government to lower income citizens is being matched by the province.<br />
Therefore, despite higher taxes on more products the government will lose money at the end of the day, if you believe the facts and figures the government cites.</p>
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		<title>By: John G</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708164</link>
		<dc:creator>John G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708164</guid>
		<description>Well, even if it is a new tax, which I don&#039;t dispute, I don&#039;t think it can be characterized as a &quot;grab&quot;, which suggests illegitimacy and greed, when the province faces an enormous deficit.

I doubt that Mr Shurman will mention the business interests that so pressingly want the harmonized tax because it allows them to get input credits for all of the sale tax they pay and simplifies their accounting hugely. Retailers will get the simplification too, but will face some unhappy customers if they sell things that have not been subject to both taxes before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, even if it is a new tax, which I don&#039;t dispute, I don&#039;t think it can be characterized as a &#034;grab&#034;, which suggests illegitimacy and greed, when the province faces an enormous deficit.</p>
<p>I doubt that Mr Shurman will mention the business interests that so pressingly want the harmonized tax because it allows them to get input credits for all of the sale tax they pay and simplifies their accounting hugely. Retailers will get the simplification too, but will face some unhappy customers if they sell things that have not been subject to both taxes before.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Prutschi</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708161</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Prutschi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708161</guid>
		<description>For those interested, in my riding of Thornhill, Conservative MPP Peter Shurman will be hosting a townhall meeting to discuss the implications of the HST at the Garnett A. Williams Community Centre on Thursday November 12 at 7:00pm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those interested, in my riding of Thornhill, Conservative MPP Peter Shurman will be hosting a townhall meeting to discuss the implications of the HST at the Garnett A. Williams Community Centre on Thursday November 12 at 7:00pm.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Prutschi</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708160</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Prutschi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708160</guid>
		<description>John G.,

The reason I referred to the imposition of the HST in this case as a &quot;tax grab&quot; is because of the way this new measure is being sold to the Ontario public.  Both our Provincial and Federal politicians have been insisting to anyone who will listen that the conversion from GST+PST to HST is &quot;tax neutral&quot; at worst and is more likely to &lt;em&gt;reduce&lt;/em&gt; the tax burden of the average citizen.

I believe in the case of previously un-taxed services such as legal fees, there is a compelling argument to dispel this fiction.  The HST must, by definition, dramatically increase the cost of accessing legal services in this Province.  It is therefore disingenuous to market it is anything but what it is -- a new tax designed to generate revenue.  

Your comment also made a connection between new taxes and the funding of vital access to justice initiatives such as legal aid.  My position might well be very different if we heard that the new revenue being collected off of HST on legal fees was to be invested in enhancing legal aid rates for those who currently cannot adequately obtain representation.  I can assure you that no such promise has been forthcoming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John G.,</p>
<p>The reason I referred to the imposition of the HST in this case as a &#034;tax grab&#034; is because of the way this new measure is being sold to the Ontario public.  Both our Provincial and Federal politicians have been insisting to anyone who will listen that the conversion from GST+PST to HST is &#034;tax neutral&#034; at worst and is more likely to <em>reduce</em> the tax burden of the average citizen.</p>
<p>I believe in the case of previously un-taxed services such as legal fees, there is a compelling argument to dispel this fiction.  The HST must, by definition, dramatically increase the cost of accessing legal services in this Province.  It is therefore disingenuous to market it is anything but what it is &#8212; a new tax designed to generate revenue.  </p>
<p>Your comment also made a connection between new taxes and the funding of vital access to justice initiatives such as legal aid.  My position might well be very different if we heard that the new revenue being collected off of HST on legal fees was to be invested in enhancing legal aid rates for those who currently cannot adequately obtain representation.  I can assure you that no such promise has been forthcoming.</p>
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		<title>By: Cherolyn Knapp</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708135</link>
		<dc:creator>Cherolyn Knapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708135</guid>
		<description>The Ontario Bar Association has been active in lobbying the provincial government on this issue.  http://www.oba.org/En/publicaffairs_en/Submissions/Submissions.aspx

It is important for all of us to also contact our MPPs to let them know what we think. Go to www.ontla.on.ca for contact info.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Ontario Bar Association has been active in lobbying the provincial government on this issue.  <a href="http://www.oba.org/En/publicaffairs_en/Submissions/Submissions.aspx">http://www.oba.org/En/publicaffairs_en/Submissions/Submissions.aspx</a></p>
<p>It is important for all of us to also contact our MPPs to let them know what we think. Go to <a href="http://www.ontla.on.ca">http://www.ontla.on.ca</a> for contact info.</p>
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		<title>By: Garry J. Wise</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708129</link>
		<dc:creator>Garry J. Wise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708129</guid>
		<description>I add my voice of support to Mr. Prutschi&#039;s position, and call upon our Law Society and Bar Associations to actively oppose this tax measure  - it will make legal services even more unaffordable for the average Ontarian. As I said at my &lt;a href=&quot;http://wiselaw.blogspot.com/2009/11/hst-tax-on-access-to-justice.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;blog&lt;/a&gt;, its time for Ontario&#039;s government to &lt;em&gt;walk&lt;/em&gt; the access to justice &lt;em&gt;walk&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I add my voice of support to Mr. Prutschi&#039;s position, and call upon our Law Society and Bar Associations to actively oppose this tax measure  &#8211; it will make legal services even more unaffordable for the average Ontarian. As I said at my <a href="http://wiselaw.blogspot.com/2009/11/hst-tax-on-access-to-justice.html">blog</a>, its time for Ontario&#039;s government to <em>walk</em> the access to justice <em>walk</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: John G</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708120</link>
		<dc:creator>John G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708120</guid>
		<description>I wonder why a new tax is always referred to as a &quot;tax grab&quot;, rather than just as a source of revenue for a government with a projected deficit in the current year of about $25 billion.  One can certainly argue for exemptions from a tax on social grounds such as access to justice, but &quot;grab&quot; suggests an imposition based on greed rather than fiscal need.

Despite that deficit, Ontario&#039;s criminal lawyers are boycotting serious cases because the legal aid fees are not high enough.  They have a strong case for a raise - and the government has put some more funds into it, considered insufficient by the lawyers - but without more taxes on &lt;em&gt;something&lt;/em&gt;, where is the extra supposed to come from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder why a new tax is always referred to as a &#034;tax grab&#034;, rather than just as a source of revenue for a government with a projected deficit in the current year of about $25 billion.  One can certainly argue for exemptions from a tax on social grounds such as access to justice, but &#034;grab&#034; suggests an imposition based on greed rather than fiscal need.</p>
<p>Despite that deficit, Ontario&#039;s criminal lawyers are boycotting serious cases because the legal aid fees are not high enough.  They have a strong case for a raise &#8211; and the government has put some more funds into it, considered insufficient by the lawyers &#8211; but without more taxes on <em>something</em>, where is the extra supposed to come from?</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Prutschi</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708118</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Prutschi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708118</guid>
		<description>I am familiar with Mr. Christie&#039;s noble fight against the PST in B.C.  Of course, here in Ontario where the PST has never applied to legal fees, the HST could have very serious negative consequences as I noted in my column.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am familiar with Mr. Christie&#039;s noble fight against the PST in B.C.  Of course, here in Ontario where the PST has never applied to legal fees, the HST could have very serious negative consequences as I noted in my column.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Fodden</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708114</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Fodden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708114</guid>
		<description>The cite to the SCC case is &lt;em&gt;British Columbia (Attorney General) v. Christie&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2007/2007scc21/2007scc21.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;2007 SCC 21&lt;/a&gt; for those who&#039;d like to read the court at less than its finest hour. It&#039;s a decision of full bench delivered by &quot;The Court&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cite to the SCC case is <em>British Columbia (Attorney General) v. Christie</em>, <a href="http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2007/2007scc21/2007scc21.html">2007 SCC 21</a> for those who&#039;d like to read the court at less than its finest hour. It&#039;s a decision of full bench delivered by &#034;The Court&#034;.</p>
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		<title>By: David Bilinsky</title>
		<link>http://www.slaw.ca/2009/11/06/taxing-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-708113</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bilinsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.slaw.ca/?p=13950#comment-708113</guid>
		<description>Edward:

Legal bills have been subject to both PST and GST in BC for some time now.

The late Dugald Christie Esq. challenged the levy of PST on legal accounts.  Wikipedia states as follows:

Christie is most noteworthy for a 2005 court challenge of a British Columbia law that extended provincial sales tax to legal services. Christie argued that the law unjustly infringed on the constitutionally-protected rights of low income people to access the justice system. He met with partial success at the Court of Appeal,[2] but a further appeal at the Supreme Court of Canada overturned the lower court&#039;s decision on May 25, 2007.[3][1]

The only &#039;improvement&#039; of bringing in the HST would be that a law firm would only need to submit one (federal) remittance rather than two (federal and provincial) as the case here in BC.

But the arguments against the imposition of tax on legal accounts have fallen on deaf ears, at least in the BC experience.

Regards,

Dave Bilinsky
daveb@thoughtfullaw.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edward:</p>
<p>Legal bills have been subject to both PST and GST in BC for some time now.</p>
<p>The late Dugald Christie Esq. challenged the levy of PST on legal accounts.  Wikipedia states as follows:</p>
<p>Christie is most noteworthy for a 2005 court challenge of a British Columbia law that extended provincial sales tax to legal services. Christie argued that the law unjustly infringed on the constitutionally-protected rights of low income people to access the justice system. He met with partial success at the Court of Appeal,[2] but a further appeal at the Supreme Court of Canada overturned the lower court&#039;s decision on May 25, 2007.[3][1]</p>
<p>The only &#039;improvement&#039; of bringing in the HST would be that a law firm would only need to submit one (federal) remittance rather than two (federal and provincial) as the case here in BC.</p>
<p>But the arguments against the imposition of tax on legal accounts have fallen on deaf ears, at least in the BC experience.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Dave Bilinsky<br />
<a href="mailto:daveb@thoughtfullaw.com">daveb@thoughtfullaw.com</a></p>
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